FANDOM


Forums: Index Armor and Implausibility
Note: This topic has been unedited for 3356 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not add to unless it really needs a response.


091SigPic
Spartan-091Bureau Roundel Senior Bureaucrat Orpheus Roundel Orpheus Ranger Roundel 10/105 Cavalier Roundel M56S
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — {{{time}}}, Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5)
Hey guys, it's me again. Sorry to bug you again, but I have an interesting/fun announcement to make. We've (Subtank, Sgt.johnson, and me) discovered the exact physics calculation of MAC damages! This was, as is usual, sparked by an IRC discussion, this time about the properties of armor. Here's what we found, after some calculations and a butt-load of research and question-asking.

For a 600-tonne MAC slug fired at .49c (49% the speed of light, as is listed as standard), the kinetic energy is 7.5 petajoules, with an impact force that is comparable to 1.17 gigatonnes of TNT.

This means that in order to provide sufficient stopping power, either some form of shielding must be used, or the armor surrounding the ship must be a few thousand kilometers thick (about one-fortieth the earth's diameter, in fact). Even then, the impact force would cause the armor, even with embedded nanotubules, to vibrate at high frequency, rendering the immediate area of contact into pure plasma and giving off massive amounts of gamma radiation, and causing shockwaves so violent that the crew inside the vessel would be turned to dust upon the collision of the slug.

In general, this means the only things that're going to stop a MAC slug from hitting its target and utterly destroying it is:

A) Dodging the projectile with thrusters fired by an AI
B) Using Covenant-grade energy shielding or higher
C) Singularity generators (this is extremely risky, as they are unreliable and could actually backfire on the deployer)
D) Firing another MAC slug or plasma burst directly at the incoming projectile... which is traveling at half the speed of light... and hitting it. Tough calculation.

So, this is also an announcement. Any armor found to have the references or words to the effect of "can stop/shatter/repel/block/etc a MAC slug" shall be rendered UNREALISTIC. As such a feat is IMPOSSIBRU! Please take this into consideration, make the necessary changes to any articles you might have, and have a good rest of the evening! Love, Me.


Discussion

Somebody has a lot of time on their hands. But the math must have been fun! But who cares about the implosibility of the MAC! This is a mythical universe in a video game!Nothing is real! - Echo 1 21:43, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Also, the Covenant uses an alloy that is not known to Humanity. This specialized armor may (although it is highly unlikely) be able to withstand the MAC cannon's devastating power. - Echo 1 21:46, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

To quote SPARTAN-091 on your comments:
"<OhNineOne> If I were authoritarian, I'd remove his comment saying "user is an idiot who doesn't read the rules""
―091, on the IRC
Yeah, See LOMI's comment below. Rainbow_Dash.pngRainbow Dash (Talk)(Contribs)  


LOMISig2
Lordofmonsterisland — There are... no strings... on me...
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — US Central Time Zone
That's WAY too much math... and Echo, you'll find that statements like that can get you in a lot of trouble real quick round here


Our articles have to be realistic, Echo. And I'll think you'll find that this awesome Covenant hull material actually can't stop a MAC slug; every example we have of an unshielded Covenant ship getting hit by MAC has either been of a massive, deep hole being punched in it, or the outright shattering of the Covenant ship in question. The fact that they aren't destroyed in an instant is probably simply due to the fact that they're so big, or some sort of internal tensor field that I'd imagine wouldn't be beyond the Covenant that keeps the ship together. That or they're just built really, really tough.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 21:57, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for the comment, and I wouldn't want to do the math. But to be honest, why are you taking a fictional video game and applying reality to it? - Echo 1 22:01, June 3, 2010 (UTC) PS: Deleted some of the crap in my previous comment and just left my point.


BMO
GrizzleiYou Are What You Dare
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS Tuesday, August 20, 2019
Same reason why Battlestar Galactica and Star Trek is so great when applied with real-world events and issues.



091SigPic
Spartan-091Bureau Roundel Senior Bureaucrat Orpheus Roundel Orpheus Ranger Roundel 10/105 Cavalier Roundel M56S
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — {{{time}}}, Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5)
Hm, how do I explain this is small words? Halo. It is science fiction. This means that the story is in the future, but it's written like it is real. It also is based in science, which means that it tries to be close to be what the future could be like. I hope that clears things up for you. I made sure to keep my words no greater than three syllables so that you could get what I was saying, because I think the big words in my first post confused you. Also, read the books. Then maybe you can sit on the forum and spout things that make sense.



Dom-094 sig pic
Hyper Zergling
Halo - Finale and One Final Effort

TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Tuesday, 20 August 2019
Could a MAC destroy a neutron star?


No, because 1) it's too big, and 2) the slug would be torn apart by the immense gravity of the neutron star. This has been a post by The All-knowing Sith'ari, who most certainly did not write an article about armour that can shatter a MAC slug.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 22:34, June 3, 2010 (UTC)


Dom-094 sig pic
Hyper Zergling
Halo - Finale and One Final Effort

TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Tuesday, 20 August 2019
I don't think size is the issue (seeing as it is only a few miles in diameter, and a nuke takes out more than that), but yes. I was more concerned about the gravity. Thank you for clarifying.



Libra Icon
The parksterLibra Team - Fermamentum Pondera
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS Australian Eastern Summer Time (GMT+11)
Wouldn't a Neutron Star just absorb it? I know they're small but surely the heat and previously mentioned gravity issue stop it? Also i have to comment on the maths, very good, however why doesn't a MAC round blow a hole the size of a large city in the ground, not to mention the megatons of blast and the huge epic explosion on contact. It doesn't on Halo Wars and surely this magnitude of fire power would have similar destructive capabilities to a nuke, minus the EMP and fallout? So what should we write about if the MAC business is grounside and not in space?



Dom-094 sig pic
Hyper Zergling
Halo - Finale and One Final Effort

TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Tuesday, 20 August 2019
I meant something else the size of a neutron star would be obliterated by a MAC.



SP501 SIG2 Image
Spartan 501//Your screams blacken my soul// //I am shadow, I am death// //I am alone in the dark, but not afraid//
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Pacific Standard Time
Wasn’t there a big argument on the Halopedia page about this a while back? I could swear I’ve seen that 1.17 Gigatonne figure before…


@Parkster: The fact of the matter is that Halo Wars wasn't realistic. A single MAC slug travelling at 49% of the speed of light is enough to render all life on a target planet extinct. Compare it to the meteor that drove the dinosaurs to extinction; while a MAC slug is indeed smaller, its much greater speed accounts for its devastating effects.

Simply put, the added factors of slug weight/mass, and the extreme speeds at which it travels, makes for a MASSIVE release of kinetic energy on impact.

Respectfully, -- AR Contact Contributions

@Spartan-501: The Halo Encyclopaedia increased it to teratons. That is what caused the big argument.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 19:21, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
Bungie did the equasion already if the gigatone level is 1.17 (Master Chief's number)... - Echo 1 03:13, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


An Elite
Norman-123 - (Insert witty phrase here):
TALK - Greenwich Mean Time
{{{text}}}

rkster|text=What so a MAC round hitting one spot on an Earth sized planet would render all life extinct? I know its powerful but isn't that a bit excessive?}}

Well, the initial blast prolly wouldn't render all life extinct; it's the tectonic activity and other bad things that come afterwards that would kill everything. And throwing 3000 ton slugs at .50c is excessive. :P -- Sergeant Major Arnold Lewis, UNSC Naval Special Warfare Development Group[COM] 15:10, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

The initial blast would most likely make a huge-arse crater; certainly much larger than the combined areas of several major cities. The resulting volcanic activity would cause ash and pumice to block out sunlight and slowly kill plant life, which would starve herbivores, which would starve carnivores; in addition, the plumetting temperatures would result in the death of many other organisms. In short, essentially how the dinosaurs were driven to extinction. Also, keep in mind that the tectonic disturbances will result in the formation of lava leaks and more volcanos the world over, causing a world-wide catastrophe.

Respectfully, -- AR Contact Contributions


SP501 SIG2 Image
Spartan 501//Your screams blacken my soul// //I am shadow, I am death// //I am alone in the dark, but not afraid//
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Pacific Standard Time
Aka the Dinosaur effect.



An Elite
Norman-123 - (Insert witty phrase here):
TALK - Greenwich Mean Time
Exactly why Halo War's MAC blast is utterly retarded, it would blow apart the WHOLE PLANET, not a few troops.


I have a question; what about Forerunner armour, the same stuff on the unshielded Forerunner Dreadnought in Halo 3 that resisted four MAC shells?--The All-knowing Sith'ari 09:17, June 6, 2010 (UTC)


091SigPic
Spartan-091Bureau Roundel Senior Bureaucrat Orpheus Roundel Orpheus Ranger Roundel 10/105 Cavalier Roundel M56S
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — {{{time}}}, Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5)
The explosion blooms, which would not result because of a MAC slug impact, suggest that the Dreadnought had some sort of shield protecting it during the Key activation process while the Portal was being opened. If you watch the cutscene closely, you can see that none of the shells or Archer missiles impact on the hull (which would have at the very least resulted in some minor pitting or scarring). Therefore, it is safe to assume a forcefield of some kind was deployed. Hope that helps.



SP501 SIG2 Image
Spartan 501//Your screams blacken my soul// //I am shadow, I am death// //I am alone in the dark, but not afraid//
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Pacific Standard Time
Alternatively, maybe it has really strong armor….



Supersmall
MaslabI am assuming direct control.I am the harbinger of your destiny.Preserve <insert name here>'s body if possible.Releasing control.
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Tuesday, August 20 2019 (Pacific Standard Time)
As discussed on the IRC, that wouldn't help. The force of which the MAC would impact would turn the impact area in to plasma. The vibrations would run through the entire ship, and would be so intense that they would literally turn the crew to dust.

I know this sounds outlandish, but it is incredibly hard to fathom the power that relativistic objects have.



S013-Banner
Ajax 013 - <Death to Heroes>[The Damned] [The Lost][The Forgotten] ObscurumVictoria :
TALK - Greenwich Mean Time
In theory, if a MAC slug hit armour strong enough to stop it (IE, the Key Ship), the kinetic energy would be transformed or passed on, such as kinetic energy being transferred into the ship's super structure, or transferred into the air generating a shockwave, or transferred into thermal energy, creating a thermal bloom, in other words, an explosion. In theory, if we go with the forerunner armour possibility, if the armour is struck, the kinetic energy absorbed and dispersed through a energy absorbing layer. Considering a UNSC warship can fire a MAC and survive the opposing reaction/recoil from launch, its not a stretch to imagine.



With all due respect, Ajax, I think there's a reason you're saying that.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 18:15, June 8, 2010 (UTC)


S013-Banner
Ajax 013 - <Death to Heroes>[The Damned] [The Lost][The Forgotten] ObscurumVictoria :
TALK - Greenwich Mean Time
Well yes, as hinted in the AEGIS article, AEGIS is modelled on Forerunner materials, inspired by the Keyship's epic defensive abilities, but I also feel inclined to mention something I'd almost forgotten, the Gauss Hog's turret possess small AoE explosions.



Well, I always thought that the round has some sort of effect on the way the energy is released because of shape or the way it impacts its target. Also, that amount of force will do quite a bit of damage to the projectile, maybe it's torn apart too quickly to do so much damage. This link might help:[1] ~~A.O.A., Delta-3 Division, ONI Section III~~ 20:28, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

And this is why I don't write armor articles...too much theory to take into consideration :)

Anyway, while speaking about this, I've been wondering something; would a MAC shot fired in the atmosphere be affected differently than one fired in space? Is it possible that the slug would be slowed down or burned up by the friction in the atmosphere (as opposed to vacuum, where there's no friction at all, right?)? Don't think it has any impact (no pun intended) on the topic, just a little point of curiosity, seeing as I suck at science. Survivor of the Old Guard

Yes, it would affect it differently. A.O.A., Delta-3 Division, ONI Section III 02:18, June 9, 2010 (UTC)


SP501 SIG2 Image
Spartan 501//Your screams blacken my soul// //I am shadow, I am death// //I am alone in the dark, but not afraid//
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Pacific Standard Time
Well, my post was intended as a joke...but I think Matt might be on to something. A MAC used in atmosphere would likely be slowed severely by the atmosphere, which might explain why the dreadnought could survive, and maybe even the Spirit of Fire's MAC. Consider this; maybe the Spirit dips into the atmosphere to fire the MAC, thus slowing it enough to help with ground troops. While I still prefer the special, lower stength MAC idea, I think it's a possibility.


Actually, the calculations above are wrong. Standard MAC fires at 1.9 TERATONS of TNT equivalent. Super MAC fires at 10 teratons. So yes, hellish-ragnarokish destruction.

And no, Ajax. The Keyship's armor didn't take the hit, and absorb it - if it had, it would've been turned into plasma, and everyone inside would be turned to dust from radiation. It was shielded.-- Sergeant Major Arnold Lewis, UNSC Naval Special Warfare Development Group[COM] 23:25, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Or, the armor took the front. Remember, Halo needed a massive explosion of 100,000,000 degrees F. So the dreadnought may have been shielded and taken the brunt of the blast. --Echo 1 02:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC)


GreyTemplar
Spartan-091Knight Commander - Paladin - Watchmen - The Sacred Plates
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — {{{time}}}, Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5)
"Well yes, as hinted in the AEGIS article, AEGIS is modelled on Forerunner materials, inspired by the Keyship's epic defensive abilities"
Ajax 013

Guess what! Covenant armor? It's made out of Forerunner materials. Yes, made. And guess what also! One MAC shot? Enough to kill a non-shielded Covie ship! It is very obvious that you are simply using technobabble and wikipedia-gleaned snippets to cover your article's ass for being unrealistically impossible. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to change your article... :/ I know it's tough rewriting it and admitting you're wrong because hell, no one likes to be wrong and no one likes having more work to do, but in this case, you gotta do it. I do appreciate your attempting to be truly civil during the debate however, and thank you for that. Regards, everyone! Have a nice day!



Fight
MaslabThe Navy. The Tech. The Mobility.
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Tuesday, August 20 2019 (Pacific Standard Time)
Echo 1; I would love to see the source of that claim because, as I recall, the explosion generated that much heat (as pretty much any dying sun would). It is never, anywhere, explicitly stated how much heat would be needed to melt any Forerunner Alloy.

501; Er... not really. An asteroid falling from infinity in to the Earth's gravity well falls at approx. 11km per second. The same asteroid falling in to the Sun's gravity well from infinity travels at approx. 50 km per second. A MAC slug travels at approx. 146,898 km per second. assuming it is fired at 49% the speed of light. The atmosphere might affect it, but not in any real noticeable or measurable way. It wouldn't even burn up if it was made of paper, as it would travel through the atmosphere in less than a tenth of a second. And that much paper would still probably take out an area exceeding the size of Asia and Europe, if not the planet.

As I stated before: the forces involving relativistic objects are massive, and the damage they can unleash is nigh on unfathomable by any human mind. This is why astronomers have a healthy respect for objects in space.



[2]These are the impact affects of a 600 ton tungsten carbide slug (I couldn't find the density of ferric tungstate, if you know it, tell me and I'll redo it) impacting the sedimentary rock at approximately 120,000 km/s (the speed at which a standard MAC slug travels) If you're 2km away from the impact. This is meant for meteor impacts, so it's not totally correct. But this should give you an even better idea of the kind destruction a MAC Cannon would inflict. A.O.A., Delta-3 Division, ONI Section III 16:06, June 11, 2010 (UTC)


S013-Banner
Ajax 013 - <Death to Heroes>[The Damned] [The Lost][The Forgotten] ObscurumVictoria :
TALK - Greenwich Mean Time
Actually 091, Covenant just badly copied Forerunner tech, knowing very little about it themselves. IE, Plasma torpedoes, plasma weapons, slip space technology. On top of that, Covenant armour is actually more art over use, per Halo 2, with the heretic 'shees




091SigPic
Spartan-091Bureau Roundel Senior Bureaucrat Orpheus Roundel Orpheus Ranger Roundel 10/105 Cavalier Roundel M56S
TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — {{{time}}}, Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5)
Just stop fabricating lame and pathetic excuses and change the damn article. I'm merely asking you to edit three sentences. Three. Fucking. Sentences. You know you're wrong, the whole damn site knows you're wrong. So kindly stop dancing about the bush, swallow your pride, and do the deed. I am getting exceedingly exasperated with your incessant rule-dodging through limp-wristed cop-outs and your refusal to lay aside petty arguing and man up. The fact of the matter is a MAC slug would never be able to be stopped by any armor, unless it's 14 miles thick. And that's with atmospheric effects getting in the way of it, to boot. In vacuum, it would likely be much, much worse. So would you graciously stop yakking and just alter the article?

Also, I managed to calculate the density of a ferric-tungsten slug and redid the impact results, which can be seen here. The effects are only slightly greater.

To the rest of you, I believe the facts have been stated and restated. Thank you Anonymous ONI Agent, for finding this very interesting impact effects program! That is all.



Dom-094 sig pic
Hyper Zergling
Halo - Finale and One Final Effort

TALK CONTRIBUTIONS — Tuesday, 20 August 2019
Would a neutron star's gravity tear a MAC slug apart if it were fired at it?



S013-Banner
Ajax 013 - <Death to Heroes>[The Damned] [The Lost][The Forgotten] ObscurumVictoria :
TALK - Greenwich Mean Time
No need to get uncivil about it. Besides, I'm falling back on the inspiration for the armour, the armour on the Keyship. After all, the armour is a human (with Sentinel help) attempt at remaking it, with lessened results (IE it can't shrug off three consecutive MAC rounds and a missile barrage, compared to the original.)



Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.