Talk:SPARTAN-013 (Ajax 013)/Archive 2

Psychology Fail
Wait... bipolar and schizophrenia? You can't diagnose those in the same patient. That's schizoaffective disorder. Disregarding that for a moment, there's no way someone so mentally unstable would have ever made it past basic training. And if he acquired his disabilities in the field(which I'm pretty sure can't happen, aside from some rather extreme form of PTSD that would render him non-functional), they would have kicked his ass out and marooned him on a deserted planet or something. Actually, no. If his mental state is in as constant a state of flux as the page seems to suggest, then they would have simply euthanased him a long time ago, because of how much of danger he was to everyone around him. - The Junkie of Data

Apologies if I came off as hostile. My point was that he would have never made it to SPARTAN status with such crippling mental disorders unless he acquired them in the field. And if he acquired them in the field, he'd be mostly to entirely non-functional, as well as being more of a liability than an asset. As it stands, assuming he somehow made it to SPARTAN status, if he's both schizoaffective and psycho/sociopathic, as well as having enemy-embedded implants(which I'm not even going to touch), and the Corps knows this, then there's no way they'd keep him around. They'd never know when he was going to snap and kill his entire squad.

"I admit im wrong then. But if Ajax has become a liability, why hasn't he been kicked out?" I believe that's the point we're trying to make. - Data Junkie

Havent these point been proven above? Shivly


 * Please refrain from useless edits, you two.

While i do not have issue with his mental stability, i have to disagree with the AI part. I seriously doubt that even an S-II could outthink a AI, Cortana was listed as being able to perform a trillion calculations at once. The same goes for being able to calculate slipstream space in his head is again doubtful, there's a reason why there is a navigation chip on every ship. But you know, i'm probably gonna get flamed for pointing those out. XW3 AR3 L3GION 11:02, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

After reading through the article more thoroughly, I still find many faults with the article, including;
 * Ajax, you've repeatedly stated that he had "only a tiny, tiny bit" of deppression when Halsey found him, yet the article says that it was "severe". Which is it?
 * In fact, every single one of his disorders are mentioned as being "severe" in the article. If they are severe, then that would affect him, in one way or another.
 * How would he have time to learn 7(!) languages when he was trained all day long every day for seven years? Even if he learns quickly, there has to be time for the information to be crammed into his mind, and it's not like he would have an Mp3-player on him in-training to listen to every lesson needed to master a language. There's more to learning languages than just know how to count to ten and then think you know all you need to know.
 * Adding to that, even if he somehow managed to squeeze in time to learn those languages, how would he have time for "advance science, in biology, chemistry, physics, theoretical astrophysics, slipspace physics (he is capable of preforming Slipstream Space calculations in his head), science, Artificial Intelligence Psychology, Xenobiology, experimental dynamic plasma physics and advance cyborg theories", to quote the article. While they may have been taught some basics about some of those things from Deja, I doubt there'd be time for long-term advanced studies like those you're suggesting. And how could he possibly be able to make slipspace calculations in his head? It's not exactly a cake recipe. Humans can do slipspace calculations, but they need to have calculators and do some complex calculations, and even then it takes some time, which isn't very good for combat situations. Thus, we can safely assume that nobody - no matter how much of a genius he/she is - can do such calculations with his head, except for AIs. Why would hhe even have to do that to begin with? It's not like spartans are supposed to pilot ships and calculate its slipspace jumps. Spartans were taught what they needed to survive and excel in the field, not pilot ships for lazy AIs or ship captains. I'm fine with him being a genius, but geniuses have limits just as everybody else.
 * Like XW3 stated above, according to the article, "He can work as fast a Artificial Intelligence and with as much ability and can even outpace and out think some Dumb A.I.s". So...that means he can carry out thousands of tasks every second...with his mind? Wow. Only way for that to work would be if he's really a rampant AI living inside a human body (Leonard Church/The Alpha, anybody?).
 * It's stated that he shunned his teammates, rejecting them to work alone. If he did that, he wouldn't be a leader, no matter how intelligent. At most, he'd be second-in-command. A leader has to be capable of interacting with people and inspire them to follow him/her. Who in their right mind would make a loner a commander?
 * The fact that he's constantly going through "severe" sociopathy reinforces this even more. Who would want to work with him if he constantly shoves them aside? Not me, anyway.
 * In your defense, you said that he was practically completely treated from mental disorders at some point, yet your article says this; "However, his lifespan has been charted with repeated mental breakdowns and regressions, despite years of therapy and drug treatment". So, the article says that despite these treatments, he still suffered a great amount of breakdowns and regressions. That's not exactly the "stable and solid mind" you seem to think him to be. And breakdowns would affect his prowess, thus making him a liability, which is something spartans can't afford to have (thus why Soren was taken out).
 * Speaking of which, his only "weaknesses" seem to be him being a bad team-player (which you contradict in your statements by saying that he actually is a good team-player, thus making its mention as a weakness pointless), and a fear of Necros conversion facilities. While I like the fact that he has a fear of something he has to overcome, this "weakness" doesn't apply until after his transformation into a Revenant, after which he's "compensated" with having his strength amplified by his new implants. I know he's a spartan and thus, they don't have many weaknesses, but give him something that has an impact during his entire life. Remember that nobody's perfect.
 * Lastly, you need to run a spellcheck; the grammar is terrible in a lot of places. And before you begin yelling, it isn't a personal attack on your writing skill, it's a clear fact.

The article in and of itself is good (even though it's occasionally hard to read due to spelling/grammar errors), and I like how it has interesting twists to it. However, there are a variety of issues that make it godmodded and unrealistic. It doesn't help when you also make statements that contradict the facts stated in the article. Either you have some editing to do, or everything you've said in your defense is in error. Your choice.

Regards,


 * "Precision and efficiency"...right. A shotgun's about as sharp and precise a weapon as a cannonball compared to an M7S or M6C/S, which is close to a scalpel. A shotgun's loud as hell, an M7S/M6CS is silent. He wouldn't use a shotgun if he was all about stealth. Not unless he wanted to draw out every enemy in the area to where he is.
 * 'Outsmarting' is different from 'just as capable'. The wording you used in the article seemed to suggest he could think quicker than AIs, who are for all intents and purposes, intelligent supercomputers. And Halsey outsmarting AIs doesn't mean she's better than AIs (in fact, she admits that she's mentally defeated by them, much to her chagrin), she's just studied and interacted with them for much of her life (she preferred AIs for company over humans), so she knows their weaknesses and can exploit that. Plus, regarding Araquiel, she just used an override failsafe for that, just as she did on Kalmiya later. All AIs, or at least Smart ones, have that. It isn't like she rewrote his entire programming and turned him into another Cortana in a second.
 * The IIIs who were recruited weren't wallowing in their sadness and crying in a gutter. They were those who had moved away from that stage and wanted vengeance and showed great resolve. There were still certain parameters that had to be followed in the screening progress, they were just less picky than with the II program because augment regimens had improved substantially and because they were going to die anyway. And I also don't see how stressful physical exercises and intense schoolwork would be a superb cure for depression. More like it'd make it worse.
 * They were trained in mental subjects as well, yes, I never said they weren't. Only that they weren't taught to do slipspace calculations in their heads or to think as quick as AI constructs, because that is impossible. All right, I'll give you one regarding the languages, but I still don't see why he would need them all. Most of those seven could have been left in favor of, I don't know, maybe time to get better in physical combat? And Fhajad's a bad example; yes, he wrote theoretical papers on slipspace physics, but it's not like he had to do all the calculations in his head while enemies attacked him. He likely studied for months, if not years, about the subject, and he probably had calculators, examples of previous calculations and studies laid out before him, and other experts in the subject proof-reading at some point at his disposal. And yes, I've heard about such people, but making slipspace calculations is about more than knowing the square root of a number. It has to be done carefully and precisely, or you might find yourself in a black hole.
 * Yes, Spartans are smart, but there's a limit to intelligence, even for those with superior genetic makeup.
 * Well, if that's not the case, then don't write that he's just as good if not better than AIs.
 * On your leadership points;
 * So...he's rewarded for being mentally unstable? I don't see much logic there, to be honest. You don't give sweets to a kid for bullying somebody. You don't give a mentally unstable kid a leadership position for shunning his teammates. Intelligence or no. There's much more to being a leader than just knowing the square root of '531'. Academical knowledge is a plus, true, but it doesn't mean anything if he/she doesn't know how to use it to lead properly.
 * Again, why would he have been given the chance in the first place? Why did they go soft on him, of all people? You're simply not leader material if you shun everybody else.
 * Uh...no. You don't see the other spartans being constantly irritated, aggressive and show lack of remorse, do you? Is John always irritated? No. Is Fred overly aggressive? No. Does Kurt show a lack of remorse? No. I'm not saying there can't be sociopathic spartans, but far from all of them are.
 * Exactly, those things made Soren a liability, despite the fact that he got stronger. That makes it a good paralell to Ajax; Ajax may be extremely gifted, but he'd only be a liability if there's always a risk for him snapping (his teammates would always be wary of him, drawing away their attention from the battlefield and potentially kill them), or even if he don't snap, he's continually relying on drugs and treatments. That makes him a burden and constant source of worry for his teammates. Oh, and if anything, doesn't the fact that you take pleasure from killing make perfect signs of insanity? What's to say then that he doesn't take pleasure from killing humans too? What's saying that he doesn't want to kill his teammates? You think anybody would take that risk?
 * All right, thanks for clearing that out.

This is getting rather tedious...
 * In response to the response to Actene
 * Agree with Maslab on this
 * As both I and Maslab have said, it's impossible for a human mind to do that. And what, IQ is insufficient to gauge his intelligence? That's what it was made for.
 * All right, another thing he's "incredibly" proficient in. I still see no sign of any weaknesses that chops off some Sue-points. Speaking of which, you should seriously run a Mary Sue-test on the character. I'd recommend This Site. In fact, I used what I could glean of the character from the article and your statements, Ajax (which, admittedly, may be flawed by a few points since you mentioned you needed to do some edits and I'm not sure exactly what future plans you have for the character), to test the character myself, and you know what it said? 87. 87. On the site, it mentions that, if the score's over 50, then you should "kill it dead". As I said, I'm bound to be wrong on some points, but even so, it would still be over 50, which means Ajax is seriously Mary Sue. Which means that a Godmod/Unrealism template is in order. But do feel free to do the test yourself and show the score if you think I'm very wrong.
 * Just so you know, torture isn't always an effective interrogation method. There's a big chance that the one being interrogated will just say what he/she thinks the interrogator wants to hear to stop the pain. Especially if you captured a spartan; he/she would most likely jump at the chance to misinform the enemy, even if they have to endure some torture to make it seem realistic. That's why Major Watanabe in TCP didn't use torture on the captured innie to extract information (contrary to everyone else's suspicion), and he was an ONI officer. Breaking the interrogated's psyche is likely to be much more effective, assuming you know how to do it properly; you tear apart the interogee's mind, and with it his resistance, willpower, and his ability to resist/fight back. Then, when he's helplessly crying for mommy, you extract the information.
 * So? He still likes it. Doesn't matter how little, he still does it. And as I said above, torture isn't as effective as you think.
 * He still attempted to murder a superior officer. And what did he do before that? Oh, that's right, he murdered another UNSC serviceman; an elite special ops commando at that, I might add. So, what's "Attempted murder" plus "Murder"? Hmmm...I think it equals "execution". And that's if he's very, very lucky. More likely, ONI would send assassins to shoot him dead, or maybe flush him out an airlock if they felt creative. Remember, they would've happily killed and dissected Johnson - a career marine and SPARTAN-I supersoldier - if it meant they might be able to develop a countermeasure against the Flood, and the chance was about one in a million that it'd succeed. So what's to stop them from pulling the plug on a SPARTAN-II that just murdered an elite operative and attempted to murder his direct superior, who, I might add, just destroyed an ancient artifact about to purge the galaxy of sentient life (and the horde of Flood and fleet of Covenant near it), and then shortly afterwards lead an operation that destroyed a Covenant space station and almost 500 ships - earning a hundred times bigger kill tally than all the other spartans' (ajax included) combined (counting the entire war)? They'd shoot a rogue spartan without a second thought for the safety of humanity. And all that is just assuming that Fred, Will and Kelly didn't shoot him by reflex once they saw him attacking John.
 * And here you go again with how he doesn't get along with people. And yet again, it shows that he isn't leader material. It doesn't matter if he can calculate a way to destroy the earth using a spoon and his own teeth and nails, if he can't work efficiently with those underneath him. Because if he can't get along well, then he won't lead effectively, and then he wouldn't have been made a leader. And Halsey and Mendez wouldn't have assigned him a team leader position if he was that way, least of all would they think that it would miraculously cure his condition; they try treat his anti-socialism, then they see if he's leader material. Not the other way around. Period.
 * As I said, regardless of what the ODST said/did, Ajax still killed him. The confrontation between John and the ODSTs on the Atlas was different; it was a test by ONI to determine John's prowess. He showed it after being ordered by a superior to fight, and then ONI was satisfied; they didn't care that their "guinea pigs" had died. But Ajax's situation's different; he killed the ODST without orders to do so, and on his own initiative. It doesn't matter if he did it accidentally or was goaded into doing it, it's still murder of a fellow serviceman. And mindless rage or no, you don't, I reapeat, you don't attempt to murder your superior. And the fact that it was a brother he had fought alongside makes it even worse (it'd be the equivalent of Matt going up to Baccus and beating him to death). And believe it or not, but there is another thing that makes it even worse; humanity's just retreated to Earth and are preparing to make their final stand - and then Ajax goes about killing or trying to kill some of the few elite operatives humanity has left. And you think the other spartans understand and just accept why Ajax tries to kill humanity's greatest hero? And even if they did feel sorry for him and didn't want him to leave, they would know that their opinions wouldn't matter and that, for the safety of the human race, they would have to put him down. And even if they didn't do that, ONI would. They would not reward him for it by offering him a place in Blue. And if there's any sanity whatsoever left in him, he would do more than go into a self-imposed exile. He would most likely put a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger, or turn himself in to ONI so they could do it for him, out of the shame that he had just tried to kill a brother.
 * And here you say again that he doesn't get along with people. And still he's put in charge! You're basically saying that it doesn't affect him in any way whatsoever, so that 'weakness' isn't a weakness. His anger management issues doesn't seem to impede his prowess either (more like it seems to make him even more powerful at some points), so that's another weakness gone. He's laden down with guilt, and how does it affect him? There doesn't seem to be any effects on that point either, so that's another made up "so-called-weakness". Oh, and he's just a leader, a pointman, and electronic/cyber warfare specialist? Bo-fucking-hoo. He's still 3-in-1; practically his own team. So why does he need his teammates again, beyond having somebody yell "oh Ajax, save me with your big shotgun, I'm being kidnapped by a bad guy so that you'll have something to do that'll require you to use a whopping 3% of your abilities"?
 * Response to the response to Maslab
 * Yes, if you know how to use "archaic line commands" like Halsey, which opens up the AI's code directory, in turn letting you find the failsafe.
 * You think Kat was "messed up"? She expressed a little guilt over the loss because it was a mission she had prepared, a somewhat natural reaction considering it was somebody she had worked with for years, even more so in Carter's case, I'd imagine. And Jun did develop PTSD, but he was cured of it after some therapy (the same can't be said about Ajax, who relies on a steady stream of drugs and treatments). Lucy did suffer severely from the loss of the rest of Beta, yes, and she was actually about to be discharged, but Kurt stepped in and pleaded to Parangosky to let her remain to train Gamma (contrary to ajax, who have a lot more disorders yet is never once discharged).
 * John had his issues, yes, but he conversely had his charms - he saved a friend from drowning (Parisa, as stated in Palace Hotel) and promised to marry her once they grew up. So it's safe to assume that he was within safe bounds.
 * As I said above, he was ordered to do it, and spartans have it crammed into them to follow orders since they were six. Conversely, he had also been trained to fight rebels his entire life. And why wouldn't he shoot zombies if they're attacking him? And seeing how dangerous the flood were, and having humanity's best interests in mind, why would he hesitate to shoot Johnson? And in the end, he doesn't sell out Johnson to ONI, since he felt it'd be a waste of such a good soldier.
 * Agree with Maslab on this.
 * See directly above
 * See above
 * Actually, ONI didn't necessarily rely on torture; as stated above, interrogating by attacking their psyche is likely more effective than physical torture, especially against very important prisoners (the innie leaders - who are likely among the most fanatical adherents of their cause). And I doubt interrogation would be an effective way of gathering information on the Covenant (this is assuming that he humans even understand what the aliens are trying to say); Elites, Hunters and Brutes wouldn't talk, Grunts, Jackals and Drones wouldn't know that much important things, and Prophets would be impossible to find (Legends is crap).
 * Again, there's a difference between being smarter than an AI and knowing how to uncover and use the AI's personal failsafe.
 * A source to that would be nice, just to make sure you're not pulling all that out of your arse. And I fail to see how it actually affects the argument.
 * Agree with Maslab
 * The spartans are experts at reading details; they would notice. And they wouldn't keep their mouths shut about it; somebody would rat it out to Mendez or Halsey. And even if the spartans didn't notice, Halsey would; she could tell exactly who each spartan was even if they wore full MJOLNIR armor. And if the spartans don't know he has issues, then how would they understand why he tried to murder John later? Congratulations on managing to contradict yourself for like the 100th time.
 * And so he used drugs. Why did you say he didn't?
 * It's still our duty as contributors to point out faults in your article so that you can fix them, or alternatively prove us wrong, which you haven't.
 * That's pretty much exactly what modern special operations groups do (except child soldier and suicide bomber parts).
 * But it does show that ONI is willing to pull active spartans away from the front lines to carry out other roles. We do agree, however, on the fact that Maria shouldn't be canon, but that isn't our choice.

Regards,

Regarding your reply to me:
 * "As explained earlier, the only two stu-ish things he has is the Cypher and the fact he's closley related to the main cast". No offense, but have you even read your own character? You forgot quite a few points;
 * his name being related to your username (a name that's been applied to you) + the name's unusal in his place, time and/or ethnicity.
 * Also known by cool nickname/unique title or adress ("The Revenant", as The Guardians call him)
 * The character becomes a cybernetically, genetically and scientifically enhanced being + kidnapped specifically for this to happen (Happens to all spartans, though ajax undergoes enhancement procedures twice, first the S-II Program and then his turning into a Revenant)
 * Isn't punished by authority figures under circumstances where others would (Killing ODST and almost killing John - admittedly, spartans are given some leeway)
 * Antisocial Personality disorder (source: your statements confirming he has Sociopathy)
 * Unusually accomplished for his age, time period, place, occupation and/or social status (Repeatedly said to be incredibly intelligent, and very proficient in cyberwarfare. Note that this applies to all spartans) + unusually accomplished in more than one area (once again, very intelligent, and very skilled in cyberwarfare)
 * Character is among the best at some of the things he does, 1 box each - 2 boxes (cyberwarfare and CQB)
 * Speaks more languages than his native one, 1 box each - 7 boxes (both article and your statements confirm this)
 * Character succeeds in virtually anything he/she tries (applies to most spartans, though)
 * Character is some kind of 'chosen one' and/or part of a major prophecy (said in the Epilogue of Kanna)
 * Orphaned (parents died) + he witnessed said deaths (sat in the same car and thus experienced the same crash)
 * Character lost a close friend(s) (Mike-028 is the only one I fully know about)
 * You feel insulted/attacked/defensive when somebody does not like your character (probably applies to many, if not most authors' main characters)
 * Character's just as good or better at the jobs/skills of one or more canon characters (better hacker than Kat-B320)
 * The character belongs to some special/elite group (SPARTAN-IIs)
 * Other characters look up to him + as a leader (Bravo Company recruits, though I assume it applies to all IVs and their respective II superiors)
 * Takes over the job/position of a canon character at some point (in this case, John's position as main spartan character)
 * Gets kidnapped by bad guys (Necros) + he/she rescues himself (manages to pilot his ship back to UNSC space)
 * The character is vital to the resolution of your own arc/storyline (The Necros War, quite obviously since he's the main character in it)
 * How do you explain these (note that I don't think all these points are necessarily bad, only that they add to the Sue-score)?
 * Well, if you clarified in the article whether it's the calculation things that Cole had to do or not, that'd be great. Because if it is, then it's okay for Ajax to do it in his head. You do that, and I'll be satisfied on that point.
 * See my first point and its sub-headers.
 * I never said ONI didn't use physical torture, I said Watanabe didn't. And I wasn't 'complaining' about physical torture, I said it's not as reliable as one may think; I really have nothing against any kind of torture - I don't like it (and I assume most don't), but I acknowledge that it exists, is being used, and is occasionally very important, and so something that Spartans would do if they needed to. Sure, it's probably very effective against underdogs, those who just follow orders from the higher echelons (though then there's a risk that they don't know anything worthwhile even if you think they do, and if the torture goes on with the torturer still believing that the tortured is lying, he/she will, as I said, invent a piece of fiction simply to stop the pain), or those who're afraid to die. But it's likely to not work on fanatics or extremist followers. And I said spartans because of RR's Myrmidons, who're for all intents and purposes, Spartan-IVs (though clad in uglier armor :P). My point is that mental torture is more likely to be reliable than the physical equivalent, though it's a fine point.
 * I'd say it's more likely to be satisfaction to still be alive and/or winning than directly taking pleasure from killing the enemy. Of course, there's bound to be some exceptions.
 * As I said, John was ordered to fight them (there was a Sergeant who told them to duke it out in the ring). Before he was given the order, John didn't move a muscle to do anything against the ODSTs; he didn't get baited into a fight. Ajax, however, showed a lack of restraint by getting into a fight just because the ODST goaded him into doing it. Any spartan should know better than randomly getting into fights with other UNSC servicemen. But fine, if he had a friend in ONI to cover it up, I guess we can drop the ODST, albeit very reluctantly.
 * About his fight with John; you said earlier that Ajax had bled and fought beside them, that he was part of their family, and they would lay down their lives for him. You don't think this applies to John too? Wouldn't they (Blue Team) lay down their lives to protect John? And you think they wouldn't see Ajax's attack as a betrayal? The fact that he tries to kill a brother that he's allegedly willing to lay down his life for kinda disgusts me. And what about Ajax himself? What happened to all of his IQ that should've told him "something's not right, maybe I should check my facts first before I kill him"? But even if Blue Team didn't shoot Ajax reflexively in John's defense, and even if John didn't press charges, and even if REGAN did cover up the whole matter to the rest of humanity, logic would dictate that the spartans would at the very least shout something like "What the hell are you doing ajax! Why're you betraying us like this!?" Oh, and the spartans aren't telepathic; they may know that Ajax has mental disorders, but how're they supposed to know exactly why he's attacking John? I say the spartans should've reacted more strongly and swiftly. Also, take this into account; what if he had actually succeeded in killing John? Would they have just forgiven him then and offer him to take over Blue Team? Only difference between murder and attempted murder is that a murder is actually successful; both are done with an evil intent.
 * When I said safety of humanity, I wasn't aware of REGAN's existance, since that whole part isn't mentioned in the article, so I didn't know he knew somebody who could cover it up (I admit, I didn't read the stories, sorry for that, but reading the article should be enough to know everything about the character, so you're to blame in that regard too). Imagine if the matter leaked out to the rest of ONI, though; do you honestly believe they would risk having a soldier that no longer follows their orders and goes about trying to kill people? They willingly sacrificed the crew of the UNSC Prophecy in HW: Genesis so that their prowler could remain hidden; they would've gladly and willingly dissected Johnson for a one-in-a-billion chance to produce an anti-flood measure, an enemy that they wouldn't even have been sure of whether it would return to fight them after the destruction of Alpha Halo or not. What's to stop them from flushing a supersoldier that goes into a mindless rage and tries to kill a fellow spartan. Ajax's skills doesn't matter to them unless they can control it. I haven't read Bloodline either, but didn't Prism mess with their HUDs and heads to the point where they thought each other to be Covenant? Oh, and nice touch by insulting me; very mature. I bet you'll win a lot of popularity that way.
 * I still say they should've tried to rid him of his sociopathy first, then consider him for a leadership position. John had to prove himself before Halsey made him leader by the way he instantly took charge of everyone and they ended up following him. Why wouldn't the same rules apply to Ajax?
 * It didn't seem like something he lied about. And what point would it have even been to lie about it? It's not like it would've caused John to feel worse about it than the fact that he accidentally killed some men in the boxing ring. And where did I say Ajax started hunting ODSTs and use their skulls as a belt? Please, feel free to share with the rest of the class. Nor did I ever say he was possessed by some intent to kill every ODST out there, nor every human for that matter. But if you get into a brawl, kill somebody, then hunt down and attempt murder on a superior you've trained alongside for seven years would set off some insanity alarms in ONI HQ. How're they supposed to know it's a one-time thing? How're they supposed to know that he won't try again given the chance? How would they know that he's not completely lost it once hearing of that behavior? At the very least, they would put him before a medical panel to determine his condition to ensure that it just was a one-time thing. Also, funny how you say I ignore your points, yet don't specify which points I make up in my head. If you're gonna call me braindead, stupid or anything else, at least back it up with something. And I never, ever dictated what Ajax would or wouldn't do what I commanded him to do; I said that something has to be really wrong with him if he can even live with himself after honestly trying to kill a comrade whom he's supposedly willing to kill and die for. And once again, nice touch by trying to validate your points by insulting me; that's bound to change my mind instantly.
 * All right, okay, good point, you win, happy? He can be leader and anti-social if you really like. And the quote is contradictive with the rest of the article and your own statements where it/you say he's very sociopathic and anti-social. Again, which is it? Can you make up your mind? Sometimes it feels like you're having a multiple personality disorder.
 * Right, and somehow he doesn't snap when he has "major depressive episodes in times of immense stress"? Sure, combat isn't stressful at all, why do soldiers need to have mental trianing again? And Lucy didn't keep fighting, she assisted in training, so that's a moot point - and once again, I say that Kurt had to plead with Parangosky to do even that.
 * Because his comrades and fellow servicemen don't also go into a mindless rage and attempt murder on a superior?
 * Again, John was ordered to fight. And they were instructed to get Watts out of there, and the mission might have failed if Sam didn't do that. Who ordered Ajax to kill John? Who ordered him to kill the ODST?
 * Right, you proved me wrong there on the Covenant prisoner point, good one. Still, I repeat that physical torture isn't as reliable as it sounds, and that many of the Covenant don't care about pain. Then again, there's black sheep in every race, and the humans were lucky to capture a talkative one.
 * That is, until he tries to kill John. Oh my god, I'm so nuts to even consider the thought that maybe the spartans wouldn't appreciate that Ajax did that, please ban me for my stupidity.
 * Er, does it matter if that problem is in your expanded universe? He still has to rely on drugs at one point.
 * You have proven us wrong in some, if not many regards, yes. Am I willing to admit that? Yes. Are you willing to admit when you're wrong? Mostly not. Instead you insult my intelligence. There's no reason this can't be done in a courteous manner. If I've expressed some uncivil lines, then I apologize for those; it's not my intention to turn this into a brawl. I do wonder why you don't question Maslab's intelligence though; not that I want you to, but we both argue against you, yet I'm the only one you choose to insult. I'd hate to think that it's just because he's an admin and I'm not.
 * Yes, we can agree on that Spartans do the illegal things other special forces do, but like those, Spartans also have to always follow orders; basically, in order to break laws, they need orders to "justify" breaking those laws.
 * It shows that ONI are willing to reassign fully capable spartans into non-combat roles.
 * It was an example. Besides, Matt and Baccus actually wuv each other, even though they don't show it on the internet =P
 * As I said above, you proved me wrong on the "anti-social = bad leader" part.

Now, how about we stop insulting each other so that this doesn't turn into an unnecessary brawl?

PS: Regarding Team Black, they're not exactly like John, Fred and Co. They decided to team up with a drone and later with other Covenant (first Two with Hopalong, and then One with lunatic elite nr 1). So, their decisions and standards don't really have much impact on Ajax's situation; because in the same story, Red Team causes One to lose her eye because of her "unspartan behavior", IE her relationship with Three. Imagine what they would've done if she had tried to kill John. Now, I'm not saying John and the rest of Blue Team are as aggressive as those Red Team fellows, but they are definetly more strict with following orders and are more disciplined than the members of Black. Even if Ajax's team are a little like Black too, it doesn't matter, because John and Co. are not, and it was they who noticed Ajax trying to kill John.

Jesus. I go out of town for a week, and there's already too much shit for me to read. You people move fast. Now, let's break things down here. To my knowledge, the UNSC is based on current (American, I believe) military branches. Already the military refuses to work with known psycho/sociopaths, despite the fact that it's a decent way to get rid of those people. I suppose one could assume that in the future they're less stringent about such things, especially when at war with five or six other species at the same time. We're also going to ignore the complete bullshit about how 013's mental state changes. That still leaves "bipolar hypomanic depression, hallucinogenic episodes" and "repeated mental breakdowns and regressions, despite years of therapy and drug treatment", both of which are lifted directly from the article. From what I've gathered from the article, which I'll admit to skimming most of except for the first three or four sections in his history, he didn't enter the program with these problems, meaning that he acquired them during active duty, meaning we can likely throw in a bit of PTSD as well.

All in all, even without the assumed PTSD, this man sounds like a liability. I've shown this article to a few of my friends and my grandfather, all of whom are in or retired from the military, and they all agree on one point: They wouldn't want this man near their unit, much less in it. He sounds like his mental state is horribly unreliable, and you never know when he's going to have some kind of episode that puts both himself and his unit in danger. If this isn't the case, then that needs to be made more clear in the article.

Now if he does suffer from PTSD like I suggested, then that would certainly explain the presence of most of his mental disorders. However, PTSD also comes with a whole other slew of problems such as Shell-Shock (not technically part of PTD, but usually accompanies it in soldiers), flashbacks when exposed to proper stimuli, severe depression to the point of self-mutilation, insomnia, and nightmares, all of which "cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" by the very definition of PTSD.

Tl;dr : The man is too unstable as-is for the military to keep him around. Since you can't just discharge a potentially psychotic super-soldier, they'd either send him on a suicide mission that's guaranteed to kill him, kill him themselves, or maroon him on some feral jungle planet. The first and third options could even provide interesting story material. Alternatively, you could clean him up, make him a little less unstable, and remove the redundancies in the first line of the "Mental State" section. Data Junkie 07:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I never said that they've never discharged SPARTANs, just that they wouldn't discharge one who presented a major risk to himself and those around him. Of course, the entire concept of letting your super-soldiers that you kidnapped as children and experimented on in secret just go is slightly ridiculous to me. But meh, 'tis canon, so it can't be argued with. --Data Junkie 19:57, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Augh. I wasn't aware that a person could be simultaneously so intelligent and so infuriatingly thick at the same time. While I don't believe the article counts as NCF, since the only really bad parts canon-wise are the Strogs Necros, and those are explained away by the AU tag, I do believe that is counts as Not Realistic, and will continue to believe so until something is done about his mental profile. Either clarification, or a complete re-write. Also, you may want to get a beta reader. Some of the spelling and grammar in this article could use some work. Especially in the Reach section.
 * Yes, I'm aware his mental state changes. That's what people do. I'd be far more worried if his mental state stayed constant his entire life. However, people don't change as rapidly as the article seems to suggest unless there's something seriously, debilitatively wrong with them.
 * No, Spartans aren't normal military. They're an elite cadre of super-soldiers who should be, and are, held to higher standards than even the toughest, most specialized military branch. However, when you seem so generally unstable that soldiers from several different military branches don't want you even near their unit, whenther on active duty or not, you may need to revise a few things.
 * Cool. So no PTSD. Mildly surprised you didn't through that in on top of everything else, but meh.
 * Despite what you may think, ONI is in the business of disappearing people. When you have a SPARTAN who seems to be not only a liability, but so unstable that discharging him may place others at risk, what do you do? You either put him somewhere where he won't be a danger to anyone, or you off him. Hell, I doubt it's an uncommon practice for valuable assets today. That may just be the cynic in me talking, though.
 * It never states it directly. Which isn't surprising, given how you continuously refuse to admit it. However, someone who "harbour[s] an explosive anger," who tried to kill his commanding officer and brother SPARTAN, and who did kill an ODST member in a fight, and who has suffered "hallucinogenic episodes", and may suffer them again depending on the situation, certainly sounds like a danger to himself and those around him.

I also want to say that you've inspired me to write about the kind of SPARTAN that would be on the run, since you've flat-out refused to accept that it could happen. --Data Junkie 20:20, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

No, he is just defensive and did not realize it was possible for him to be wrong. Seriously, how did this guy get best writer of the year? This character is completely unrealistic and G-modded. I mean... ''Ultra Human!? '''REAALY!? XDDDDD' Oh and this: "Its like Angels and Demons are waging a war inside his head..." XDDDDD FUCKING LOL. XD Nice 300 ripoff as well. Good to see he's on Admin Probation however. ~ Dark Energy (PS: The NEW admin team un-banned me, realizing your banning of me 2 years ago was unjust and not related to ME Fanon at all, which, yeah, it wasn't. Hm. TTFN.)