User talk:Xzan Tamasee/Defense of Mother Sanghelios

And your proof or evidence? The Boatman's boat from The Duel resembled a typical ancient human boat quite well. Xzan Tamasee 01:45, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

To be quite honest, Legends' interpretation of Sangheili society should not be taken literally: it was not directly overseen by Bungie, and a great deal of it should be regarded as artistic license. From a purely realistic standpoint, alien architecture and craftsmanship would be utterly different in most every aspect from human comparatives: completely different building materials and design principles (in line with a different planet's different gravity and other such characteristics), as well as different social mindsets.

Legends is Canon aside from Odd One Out. Take artistic liscense as you will, but a boat is a boat. There's nothing contradicting it in the canon regarding that anyway.Xzan Tamasee 01:55, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Because Sangheili technology severly declined since the Schism. The Prophets handled technology during the Covenant era. Now that they are gone, Sangheili struggle to keep up technologically. This is all in the first paragraph or so. Xzan Tamasee 03:05, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Do any of you actually read eachother's comments? Or do you just spam the same thing for some other reason? Xzan Tamasee 13:28, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

We were just unsure how the two fit together. It sounded like it was saying: "No rigging ships" to "Yes rigging ships." Just plain confusion. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 16:37, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

I love how you guys are fighting over the ship. Perhaps they didn't feel like risking the ships that were defending orbit to go stop an attack in atmosphere? I mean, really, don't you think they would want to hang on to that? Seriously...*Points* Wow are those brutes stupid.-Alsa Voromee-Major of the Cusading Spirit Fleet

They were using boats, too. I doubt that Corvette's would have grappling hooks and things where you could just jump onto something else.


 * Which brings up the question why Brutes would want to use boats at all. Or why, if the Elites were at such a loss for starships, why they still had anti-aircraft guns. Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 01:24, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

They too suffered inovation losses. It is said that before the Brutes joined the Covenant, they were just figuring out how to make a radio. Imagine the losses they suffered after many years' fighting and add Civil Wars onto that?-Alsa Voromee-Major of the Crusading Spirit Fleet.

The brutes were using a hijacked ship from Makuree Harbor, not a spacefaring Corvette. Obviously a Corvette has no grappling hooks. And as for the AA Guns, those were built and stationed in Tamasee State before the Great Schism. Not after the decline. Xzan Tamasee 01:45, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Your not following. The Brute Corvettes flew over Tamasee State, the only area that had AA Guns. The AA Guns managed to take down 3 out of the 5 Corvettes. Not wanting to take any more losses to the AA Guns, they landed on Makuree State, and wreaked havok there. Some of the brutes decided to hijack a ship from Makuree Harbor on a campaign to head towards Tamasee State and destroy the AA Guns from foot. However they ran into the sangheili warship on it's way to aid the Makurees, and were destroyed. Xzan Tamasee 20:11, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Why would they fly over the only state with anti aircraft guns if they had another choice? Also, why hijack a ship from the harbor if you can just use your own ground vehicles, which likely move faster? Finally, why didn't the Brute have one of the remaining Corvettes hit the Sangheili ship with its anti ship plasma turrets instead of boarding? The Brutes are not that dumb.--Supercavitation 20:21, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

The brutes don't exactly have fine details of every state in Sanghelios. It's not like they have scouting reports behind enemy lines. They would not have known about the AA Guns.

They did not use their ground vehicles because they had to cross an ocean...

Don't know what you're talking about with boarding, unless your the guy who thought I said Corvettes had grappling hooks, but the remaining two Corvettes landed due to the loss of the others from AA Guns. They didn't want to suffer the same fate, unknowing Tamasee State was the only territory in the area that had them.Xzan Tamasee 21:38, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ever heard of Sensors? The Brutes would have known about the AA guns before they were in range. Another point, why bring so few ships, and small ones at that, to attack your enemy's homeworld? The Brutes are smarter than that.--Supercavitation 21:42, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

How about this. Both sides felt like it. Sometimes there doesn't have to be a logical reasoning. You're like throwback philosophers, you fight over the same thing but to no avail. No one will win this arguement.-Alsa Voromee-Major of the Crudsading Spirit Fleet.

I'm not going to dignify that with a response.--Supercavitation 22:07, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

going by past articles, he is, Phalanx Actual.--Supercavitation 22:13, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Don't understand what obviously needs to be changed... Xzan Tamasee 22:40, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe if you read the article, read some of the others comments, or read my comments, you'd understand the use of a ship.Xzan Tamasee 23:21, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

So... you cant state what is wrong or find a reason for it being wrong, so you revert to insulting us because of our opinion declaring us sock puppets because we agree that this is a very rational assumption? the Brutes were disorganized after the Schism, a cheiftan wanted glory in his name by conquering Sangheilios with all the like minded brutes he could muster? they could not muster many ships, and whatever the cheiftan said then would be law unless he was challenged by another, he could have the tactics and reasoning of a five year old but the strength of five brutes. Tldr- brute cheiftans are not chosen for their mental strength only physical strength. He thought it was a good idea, no one would challenge him. And boats are the same everywhere, you dont see rectangle ships anywhere do you? I dont either, Go watch the Duel and the return, look at the ferryman's boat, then look at the boats the Sangheili were training on during the duel, Pretty similar no? Fixed? Fixed. and tell your Omniscient Masters of the haloverse that know everything Moderation team, to read my resolving post. -Onea 'Var Makuree

So.. your saying I would waste my time making multiple accounts on this site, and creating pages on all the different ones? No. Plus, my Fleet members are not the only ones agreeing with me, should you have actually read the comments, you'd notice that. Xzan Tamasee 00:37, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Mkay lets start:

Still can't copy/paste... wtf is wrong with this site?

Alright, Maslab you'll just have to refer to the comment you left on my page for guidance, I'm not copying it all to here.


 * For the first two bullets: The fact that ships are hard to build doesn't stop them from making it. Hence Persian army, Also, using what resources available to them is more than likely what they will use. Wood being the primary one.


 * No where is it stated that Covenant ships have "sensors". And if so I fail to see how these sensors could pick out AA Guns.


 * Slipspace is a useful tool for the brutes to get to Sanghelios' atmosphere. And lack of Sangheili spacefairing vessels also helps.

Xzan Tamasee 02:21, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Edit: found sensors. Still doesn't explain how they could distinguish AA Guns from the rest of the structures.

If the brutes made a slipspace jump into the atmosphere and ended up directly over the anti aircraft turrets, wouldn't that have destroyed the turrets, as per Halo 3:ODST. To quote you: "Someone hasn't played Campaign."--Supercavitation 02:31, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sangheili have been sailors since as far back as we know. There is no training involved. And as for the wood, it's cool that you think you know about sangheili's supply and demand.


 * Luminaries are used to look for humans and forerunner vessels... AA Guns are neither of those.


 * You seem to be ignoring the lack of Sangheili ships, and the brute's use of slipspace

Other guy: No where is it stated in my article that the slipspace jump was directly over anything.

Xzan Tamasee 02:45, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Hokay, lets sum this up before a certain person locks it again.

Proof for wooden boat:

The sangheili have had every technological thing they've ever needed handed to them for centuries. Anything they need was created by the Prophets and given to them. Now continue that treatment for generations. Then suddenly drop them off at home. What can they build? What would the average sangheili know what to make? They've been sailors since as far back as we know. Natural resources are wood. Even if they could manage to get the massive amount of metal needed for a ship, they wouldn't understand the buoyancy and the ship would sink. We've seen them use wooden ships in both ancient times (The Duel) and modern times (The Return).

I have canon to back up my evidence. You have no canon at all. I could have had the "lowest on the tier" canon, and still win, because you have nothing.

"...the Sangheili now largely lacked the understanding to build new facilities and weapons themselves. The Sangheili steadily lost ships they could not easily repair, let alone replace . Their time seemed to be running out."

Halo Evolutions, pg 507

Where is it ever said that the average military sangheili would know how to make a giant metal warship? Secondly, they are facing brutes. It would be spiker fire. Reinforced wood could hold off for a little, but obviously not that long. That's why I only had it take only a little bit of damage before the two ships boarded.

 Now, on the other hand, where is it said that sangheili are avid sailors and use wooden boats?(I know the answer!

Xzan Tamasee 02:02, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

If they were used in practice what would stop them from being used in combat? Especially if things were at an all time low like they were in my story? And obviously they wouldn't hold up. That's why I made it take minimal damage. It's mainly used to transport the army from Voromee State to Makuree State.Xzan Tamasee 02:05, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

Still avoiding mass amount of canonicle evidence... Also, if it's somewhat effective, unlike foam swords, it would be used. Especiall considering they originally planned to use it purely for transport to Makuree State.Xzan Tamasee 02:30, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

Especially*

I didn't ignore the bows and arrows thing... I assumed you'd understand I'm not going to copy every example you gave. But let's keep going on with what else is wrong with that.

Rag on about canon.

This is what the whole argument is about. Canon. And guess what? I have it on my side. You don't. Xzan Tamasee 02:44, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

In case you missed it the first time it was thrown in your face:

Proof for wooden boat:

The sangheili have had every technological thing they've ever needed handed to them for centuries. Anything they need was created by the Prophets and given to them. Now continue that treatment for generations. Then suddenly drop them off at home. What can they build? What would the average sangheili know what to make? They've been sailors since as far back as we know. Natural resources are wood. Even if they could manage to get the massive amount of metal needed for a ship, they wouldn't understand the buoyancy and the ship would sink. We've seen them use wooden ships in both ancient times (The Duel) and modern times (The Return).

I have canon to back up my evidence. You have no canon at all. I could have had the "lowest on the tier" canon, and still win, because you have nothing.

"...the Sangheili now largely lacked the understanding to build new facilities and weapons themselves. The Sangheili steadily lost ships they could not easily repair, let alone replace . Their time seemed to be running out."

Halo Evolutions, pg 507

Where is it ever said that the average military sangheili would know how to make a giant metal warship? Secondly, they are facing brutes. It would be spiker fire. Reinforced wood could hold off for a little, but obviously not that long. That's why I only had it take only a little bit of damage before the two ships boarded.

Now, on the other hand, where is it said that sangheili are avid sailors and use wooden boats?(I know the answer!

 Xzan Tamasee 02:02, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

If they were used in practice what would stop them from being used in combat? Especially if things were at an all time low like they were in my story? And obviously they wouldn't hold up. That's why I made it take minimal damage. It's mainly used to transport the army from Voromee State to Makuree State

Now I expect this thing to be off my article.Xzan Tamasee 03:04, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

You: you seriously think that reinforced wood would stand anything against heated, metal spikes?

Well, yes. Quite frankly. It takes a few seconds for a spiker to go through a pallet, which is not reinforced and is of poor quality. It would hold up for a few seconds of Spiker fire. And for the record, stand anyhting isn't a proper phrase ;)

You: Yes, it said they largely lacked the understanding to build new facility it didn't say they had none of those, anymore. They couldn't easily repair them, that doesn't mean they could not replace them.

Look at the quote again champ. It says they "couldn't easily repair them, let alone replace." Which means they couldn't replace them. Learn to read before attempting a rebuttal.

You: the average Military-caste wouldn't be able to know how to build a ship (like a lot of Modern day soldiers don't know how to build a ship) there were probably a few that could.

Nice conjecture.

You: Something about spears and M16s

They were both on boats. And both thought they would only end up being used for transport. They wouldn't just wave as they came alongside eachother unexpectedly, now would they?

You: And if the Sangheili were so technologically impaired, what would stop the Brutes from staying in their ships and glassing the hell out of Sangheilios?

The AA Guns. And the fact Corvettes don't have glassing beams. (Thanks Maslab)

Xzan Tamasee 03:41, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

@Furry Spartan guy: None of what I had written was debunked. You just ignored it. Please show me where it was debunked. And as for citing quotes from novels, you clearly haven't read my post. In your words, would you kindly shut up, read the post, and remove your tag. Xzan Tamasee 03:44, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

@118 again: Also, furthermore, I have provided numerous canonicle facts in my argument. Where is your canon? All you've said was I doubt this or I don't think that. That is what I mean by saying I have canon and you dun got none. Winning. Xzan Tamasee 03:53, April 1, 2011 (UTC)cond


 * Xzan, your argument has already been defeated by Maslab. Next point to defeat?

Unless you are handicapped in some form you can obviously tell he took one small portion of my large case and argued against it, in which I argued back and won. Pay attention. Xzan Tamasee 13:13, April 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * All I have seen is you claiming to "win" repeatedly, offering no compelling or logical argument to the contrary. What the hell are you claiming to win, anyway? The best you could pull off here is a Pyrrhic victory - permanently tarnishing any reputation within the community. In addition to this, you have failed to adequately address points bought up by the community further up the page. SPARTAN-118  (Talk) ( Contributions ) 13:33, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

My God...
Believe me, Felix, this page still ain't there yet... Tuckerscreator (stalk ) 13:36, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about? Anything you or the rest of the people here possibly argued against were all written up in my case, which was posted twice just for you. You have yet to do anything with that, other than ignore it. Xzan Tamasee 13:38, April 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Call me crazy, but I don't recall ye addressing my own point that the Elites already had the basic scientific prowess to create their own interstellar empire BEFORE the Prophets came. Tuckerscreator (<font color="#008000">stalk ) 13:41, April 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * And he's failed to adequately address Ajax's point above, still.

Okay, now I'll make a second argument addressed mainly to other red guy's comment.

First I'll start with that one slipspace thing that I don't really care about. So you said it would be super hard to enter the system in atmosphere. Covenant vessels have always been more accurate with Slipspace jump. Don't know where you came up with it being difficult to jump into atmosphere, but honestly I don't care. It doesn't change the story if I make it in atmosphere or just outside of atmosphere. Now on to the stuff I care about.

Your basic argument is that the Sangheili were a space fairing race when they encountered the San Shyuum. This is all true, but they only reached that development because they had been doing their own science and engineering for thousands upon thousands of years. My story takes place a mere decade and some odd years after the Great Schism. Much like ancient humanity, the Sangheili were "devolved" in a sense. Pertaining to intelligence only. It is abundantly obvious they were not oblivious to all technology, as they knew how to operate most all covenant technology, and clearly weren't reduced to cave-sangheili. My basic point is that the sangheili were starting fresh for the most part. They did not have thousands of years of archived improvements in science, math and physics that they had pre- Covenant. Their understanding of that became obsolete with the San Shyuum taking over all scientific things with the formation of the Covenant, and was lost over the generations.

My second point is that the wooden ships were not meant to be used in combat. Both parties, the Sangheili and the Jiralhanae, both thought that the ships would be used purely as transport. The Jiralhanae to the opposite side of the sea, and the Sangheili as transport to Makuree State to aid in the battle. Before anyone will begin to complain about the Shade Turrets stationed on the Sangheili ship, please note that turrets would most definetly be useful in combat, and have been seen in just about every Halo mission. The Sangheili brought them to use against the Jiralhanae at Makuree State. They did not expect to cross paths with the Jiralhanae, but when it happened, they used the turrets to their advantage. That is how it "became" a warship, in essence.

I hope this satisfies 118, Maslab, and the guy with the red background whose name also escapes me.Xzan Tamasee 20:47, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

Point is that they aren't going to lose 600 space vessels, or move them away from the obvious target that is Sangheilios and lose the knowledge on how to build ships in 4,745 days

If you read the first paragraphs of the article you'd notice that was already talked about. The Sangheili weren't in control of all 600 vessels, and the ones that were in their control were taking the fight toward Doisac.Xzan Tamasee 21:14, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

You say this, then you say:

Again with the single quote on which your argument rests on.

A quote is something you would call canon. Derp. Then, you proceed to post:

Apparently, they lost a fair portion of their knowledge, not all. Furthermore, they still have Huragok to repair damaged ships, weapons and vehicles. Also, not all information would have been lost. Warships would probably have a large amount of knowledge on them, thus not losing this wealth of knowledge, as you claim.

Nice conjecture you have there sir. May I ask from which novel you base your information on this?

You: And why would they even have wooden ships in the first place?

Plenty of logical reasons. Trade from across the sea from Makuree State to Voromee State, Ferries to move civillians to and from the two land masses. etc. They've had wooden ships since as far back as we've known Sangheili (The Duel), and as far present as events up to the Great Schism (The Return).

You: They can still use metal and alloys to make vessels. They could have not regressed to such a stage where they cannot do that if they are still making warships; they still have aircraft, and even if (for some illogical reason) they had to resort to ships, they could simply repurpose existing technology to create an actual powered vessel. Why yes, this is quite possible, because they still have plasma weaponry and understand the concepts on how their weapons work.

Moar conjecture. Also it is obvious they do not know how to repurpose technology, considering they can barley repair, let alone replace it.

You: Also another problem with your idea of a sailing ship with rigging. They are slow, obsolete and nothing but a target. I feel it is prudent to note is the extreme fire hazard the ship would be if hit by plasma. Hell, it would become a flaming death trap if so much as one shot of plasma impacted on the side, which would no doubt happen if a firefight occurred. Same with the sails - nothing but a fire hazard. Putting Shades on the ship just compounds the previously pointed out issue.

If you were to read the other comments, or read the actual article, you would notice it is spiker fire, which the ship would hold up against for a few seconds, which is why I say that it holds up for a few seconds before they board eachother. The shade fire was at the Jiralhanae, not the ship.

You: I must add one more comment; to get up on the rigging to get to the sails, the Sangheili crewmen would have to climb up ladders. Given the fact that Sangheili knees bend forward, that act would be neigh on impossible. This just hammers another nail in the coffin of your page.

If anything double jointed legs would make it easier to climb a ladder... Why do you think they talk about Ther Vadam scaling the walls and mountains of Vadam Keep when re- taking it in Cole Protocol?

So no, you, once again, post conjecture, with no evidence of anything ever, naling the coffin of your argument.Xzan Tamasee 16:15, April 3, 2011 (UTC)